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Post by Kristian on Apr 12, 2019 10:08:26 GMT
whingeIt might just be me, but are melee/tank types suffering a tiny bit as the game goes on? To begin with it was fine ...i.e. you generally (in D&D terms) took a fighter or magic-user type, and so we usually excelled in one area and was flawed in another. With the addition of gear (and more gear on the way), those magic-users are getting bonuses to strength, stamina, speed, armour and so on (in addition to all their other shiny abilities) ...things us melee guys have had to sacrifice XP for. Similarly the armour ability is not as good as actual physical armour (i.e. it's recently been changed so it comes off your current stamina score - whereas physical armour has a static value no matter what) ...so I've had to take Mega-Regeneration as a kind of tax in order to keep my armour (via stamina) at a reasonable value (essentially paying twice for something someone else has got for free ...or free at least as far as the armour aspect goes). As I say, it might just be my own blinkered view on the matter, but I thought it might be something to consider.
"God save the King!"
/whinge
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Post by dstubbs on Apr 12, 2019 11:23:18 GMT
In short: yes. Gear is a bit of a weird one because it’s free stuff that duplicates paid-for super powers. In the case of armour the downside is supposed to be that once it’s taken a beating you have to repair it, but we have multsuits and an engineer soooo...yeah. It’s a free super power. In Mutants and Masterminds gear and powers were treated as the same: if your hero used it, you paid for it. Having our resident Mad Scientist should be an RP reason for any of us to buy tech-like powers onto our characters.
Armours’ strength is that you can use it after a failed dodge I guess? It takes the edge off a heavy hit so long as you have the stamina score to back it up. Also, your Stamina dice pool can be expanded (for an xp cost of course) whereas gear armour can’t. And mega regen is the secret source of kicking ass: two actions every turn? Yes please!
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Post by Kristian on Apr 12, 2019 12:03:18 GMT
And mega regen is the secret source of kicking ass: two actions every turn? Yes please! I might be putting words into Steve's mouth here ...but I think that was one of the things (from the Necessary Evil game that we played*) that he was trying to avoid in this game (i.e. some players constantly having twice as many actions as others). So that might also need to be looked into (that is, assuming that's still a concern ). *In that game it was the speedster that essentially got to do twice as much stuff as everyone else.
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gilbo
2019 Group
Posts: 1,446
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Post by gilbo on Apr 12, 2019 13:25:11 GMT
Totally agree with Kris. Armour is a bit OP. I am thinking of how to get around this issue and will write a longer reply when I am not on my phone.
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Post by brumguvnor on Apr 12, 2019 13:25:36 GMT
and there's a neat dodge currently cunningly being utilised at the table that you could use yourself right now Kris: burn a stamina point to get an extra action and the regenerate it next turn with mega regen.
I can see the argument for charging for use of the suits - at the moment there are 2 suits I use that I swap in and out when one gets damaged and get Vlad to repair that has come about through roleplay... - so: no actual points cost. The suits do take power points when I use them though. And due to my fear of losing the suits I have invested in a permanent mega armour power!
I suppose the only equivalent would be some tech trick that gave tanks some kind of mental or blasting power.
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Post by Kristian on Apr 12, 2019 15:35:49 GMT
and there's a neat dodge currently cunningly being utilised at the table that you could use yourself right now Kris: burn a stamina point to get an extra action and the regenerate it next turn with mega regen. As I said above, I thought that was something we were trying to avoid this time? (though I might be remembering wrong ...I'm old ...and my brain doesn't always...) Plus if someone with a suit spends a stamina for an extra action, their armour value is unaffected. If I do it, my stamina and my armour drop by one :S Anyway, it might be nice (just out of interest) to calculate how much of a bonus the armour suits are giving IF those bonuses were to be bought as abilities.
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Post by dstubbs on Apr 12, 2019 16:02:31 GMT
Mega regen and Stamina burn is just really powerful.
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Post by zaphodbeebledoc on Apr 12, 2019 19:50:42 GMT
But if a speedster puts points into extra actions, those points can't be used for anything else.
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Post by Kristian on Apr 12, 2019 19:52:36 GMT
The suits do take power points when I use them though. OK ....looking at this through the eyes of a green eyed monster ... Lets say that the armour suit adds just one to STR SPD and STA (I think it's probably more) ...then that's 9 XP worth of bonuses. If they also offer a similar effect to Super Armour ...that's 6 XP for a new power. So that's at least 15XP worth of upgrades (if it's upping stats more than that, or it's actualy mega armour, or has other effects - then it could be as much as 30XP+). And any penalty it applies (i.e. sucking one power point) can be offset by upping your power points by one ...for a measly 3XP. ...does that sound about right? (note that it doesn't really matter ...as we're all on the same side, so it benefits us all - it's just something to keep in mind for purposes of fine tuning the game for future games)
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Post by Kristian on Apr 12, 2019 20:08:17 GMT
Hmmm... maybe physical armour could be treated like temporary hit points in addition to the normal roll (i.e. Armour 5 can absorb a total of 5 damage ...so if it negates 3 damage from a hit, it's now Armour 2). And as long as the armour isn't reduced to zero (in which case it's destroyed) it can be repaired. Repair then takes 1 day per point of damage (I don't know if you'd call this a skill or smarts test) ...but this can be brought down by 1 day (to a minimum of 1 day) for each point of success. So if it's a skill roll, and you have skill 6 and roll a 4, you can reduce the repair time by 2 days (to a minimum of 1 day). ...just thinking aloud here
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gilbo
2019 Group
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Post by gilbo on Apr 12, 2019 22:38:45 GMT
Yes I like the idea of ablative armour, so it would work in the same way as the current rules for the super armour ability. Roll the stat or under to soak 1 damage, 2 if it is mega armour, this reduces the stamina of the person or the stamina of the armour. If the armour reaches 0 it is destroyed. That means it is still pretty good, as it is giving you extra hit points. I also think that if you are wearing 6 or more points of normal armour, you can't dodge and your speed is capped at 5.
I would also like to nerf the suits with regard to spell casting (sorry James), as it is akin to a mage walking around in full plate. I think the rule should be that if you are wearing one of the armoured power suits, you can't cast spells, as you can't perform the correct gestures, or the armour interferes with your mana or something.. However, you could cast a spell that lasts all day, don the armour and then use the spell.
Furthermore I think I said the armoured power suits had super strength 6, and maybe super speed 6. I think this should be reduced to super strength and speed, but using the wearer's own stats, so the suits would enhance your abilities rather than having stats of their own.
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gilbo
2019 Group
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Post by gilbo on Apr 12, 2019 22:41:39 GMT
With regard to spending points of stamina to gain an extra action, then regenerating it, well, it's not really in the spirit of the game and stinks of massive power-gaming, but I can't think of a way round it.
How about we say you can only spend a point of stamina to gain an extra action once per combat?
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Post by Kristian on Apr 12, 2019 23:15:50 GMT
I think I said the armoured power suits had super strength 6, and maybe super speed 6. So up to now, if character with 4 speed and 4 strength dons the armour it would have been... Super Strength (costs 6xp) Super Speed (costs 6xp) +2 str (costs 3xp per point) +2 speed (costs 3xp per point) And effectively has super armour (costs 6xp) ...thus +30xp (ish) better than one without it.
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Post by dstubbs on Apr 13, 2019 0:05:12 GMT
SUGGESTION TIME WHOO!
-Stamina for Actions dies. The End.
-“Mundane” armour, being by definition “not Super”, should be less effective than Super Armour. The rules we currently have for mundane armour are pretty solid in this respect: one dice roll where success is determined by scoring under its armour value. I guess the mech suits are acting as a hybrid between a mundane and a super armour, so we need to decide which category it sits under and then cost it appropriately.
-Maybe we could look at how super armour and dodge work in general? At the moment you have the option to use both against a single attack, but that seems to be a bit harsh against the attacker since any Slams on the defenders side will cancel out the attack. Case in point: Kaladin fighting the Dr. Using his normal attack rolls did very little because of the two layers of defence he had to punch through: we only killed him when power points were looked into a overpowering strike that completely nuked him. I’m thinking that when you’re attacked you must choose one type of defender to repel it, and the defence type influences the risk/reward outcomes. Off the top of my head we have Dodge, Barrier/Shield and Armour.
Dodge: high risk, high reward. You may dodge any number of attacks per turn. Roll your Speed dice, and should you beat the attackers score, no damage is dealt to you. If you fail, full damage is dealt. If you are affected by ability that would hamper your movement, you also count as being Weakened when rolling to Dodge. Slams rolled bolster your next defense roll as you build up momentum and confound your foes with your lighting speed and dazzling skill: when you next roll to defend, roll one additional dice for each slam you rolled in the previous defense.
Super Armour: low risk, lower reward, but longer staying power. Stamina-based roll. At Super level, you reduce damage dealt from and attack by 1, and Mega reduces by 2. Slams reduce damage further by 1 per slam rolled. Super Armour Slams remove Weakened effects. Mega Armour Slams remove Stunned effects.
Shield and Barrier: hybrid type, powerful but unreliable. Can be tied to another Power such as Telekinesis, Elemental control etc, and as such you roll your defence on the stat the power is tied to. Roll your dice, and create your defence score: so if you have Spirit 8, and try to defend through a barrier via Sorcery, rolling a 2 would give you a score of 6. This creates a barrier or shield with 6 Stamina. The attacker deals full damage to this barrier, but cannot apply status effects to you whilst the barrier holds. Slams increase the Stamina of the barrier by 1 per Slam rolled. Subsequent attacks made against you degrade the barrier further, and when it’s Stamina is riders to 0 you take the damage yourself. You can attempt to reinforce your barrier on your turn by spending your move action to roll again, adding your new score to the Stamina of the current barrier. In this way a barrier-wilder can take an impressive amount of punishment so long as they don’t move.
Rough and ready, but what do you think? I’m trying to keep it simple but also make defenders unique and flavourful. Tell me what you think!
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Post by Kristian on Apr 13, 2019 9:50:54 GMT
My (madcap) proposal for 1 attack / 1 defence roll (stealing ideas along the way).
1) You can dodge once per round by rolling under your speed (twice for super dodge, etc. - so no change from RAW).
2) Armour works similar to temporary hit points - no roll is necessary, it simply soaks a set amount of damage before it is rendered useless (though armour values might need to be reworked). Optional rule: if the difference between the attack roll and the dodge roll is more than the current value of the armour ...it's a particularly good/accurate hit that bypasses the armour altogether.
3) Super Armour (perhaps this should be renamed Super Toughness to avoid confusion) works similar to Damage Reduction 1 (no roll necessary). Similarly, Mega Armour is DR2. A regular slam attack ignores 1DR, a double slam ignores 2DR, etc.. Optional rule: keep the normal dice roll for this - but it comes off maximum stamina not current stamina.
Any damage taken must come off mundane armour first (i.e. lets say you suffer 1 point of damage from a mook ...if you're wearing 'Armour 3' and have the 'Super Armour' ability you can't say I'll use the latter to soak the damage ...and thus stop your regular armour from degrading. No, it MUST come off the regular armour first).
My thoughts for items/gear.
I think they either need to be used for RP purposes (like how Dan says they are handled in M&M ...i.e. you still need to buy them - but here's an in-game reason for you getting a random super power) -OR- you need to sacrifice a PP for each super ability (or maybe 1 PP per +5xp or +6xp worth of bonuses).
So yeah, a 'mage' can still get into the +2 full plate of speed ...but it's gonna cost him/her five PP to do so. Similarly a 'fighter' could do the same (costing the same) ...but the bonuses are likely the be less for him/her.
E.g. Using the revised armour suit that Steve has proposed, if it just grants Super Strength and Super Armour, that's gonna cost someone 2PP to put on ...that is, assuming its armour is mundane (essentially +12 XP worth of super powers ...but this can easily be offset by paying 6XP for 2 extra PP ...which brings it closer in line with a super power that has a special activation - i.e. you don't have it on you at all times). If using the old version of the suit, a character would probably need to sacrifice 5PP to use it.
EDIT: regarding mooks (who might only be able to do 1 damage and not be able to harm someone with DR)...
Mooks gain the 'gang-up' ability ...essentially rolling all of their dice together as a single (1 damage) attack (i.e. 6 mooks surrounding a 'super armour' hero would roll 6 attack dice - thus having a reasonable chance of a SLAM).
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