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Post by brumguvnor on Apr 13, 2019 11:10:17 GMT
also thinking about it: why does my armour rated at stamina 6 protect me with a personal stamina of 4, but then suddenly stop working for someone with a stamina of 7? - shouldn't armour work in a stacked fashion for everyone, not just those with a lower stamina than the armours?
And I'm cool with whatever nerfing has to happen to reinstate balance: as I mentioned I'm so paranoid I have already bought mega armour as a personal power, over and above my super sorcery.
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Post by Kristian on Apr 13, 2019 11:47:13 GMT
shouldn't armour work in a stacked fashion As I say, rather than stacking (which might raise things up to ridiculous numbers I'm very much in favour of mundane and super armour having different effects (like my Temp HP and Damage Reduction proposal ...though it doesn't need to be these exact things of course). So with regard to the power suit ...it could be ruled that it's mundane (and grants a reasonable amount of extra temporary HP - but has the possibility of being outright destroyed), or that it's similar to a super power (and has DR1 for example - and no chance of being destroyed ...but does cost an additional PP when worn). Just random thoughts though.
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Post by Kristian on Apr 13, 2019 12:12:11 GMT
I have already bought mega armour as a personal power My opinion is that super/mega armour is a bit crap after the recent ruling that states that it now uses your current stamina score (not your max score) For example (I hate the term 'build' but I'll use it anyway), part of 'my build' wasn't really based around regeneration (that was more of a RP thing to explain the reverse ageing thing, and to offer a bit of healing out of combat) - it was more about him being very hard to damage (i.e. I'd occupy the bad guys in a rather mundane fashion, while others took them down with their flashy abilities - so very much a supporting role). As such I spent a few points getting a reasonable stamina score, 6 points on super stamina, 6 points on super armour, and 5 points upping that to mega armour (and I've now had to waste 5 more points on mega regeneration to ensure my stamina, and thus armour value stays up to a usable level). For example, last session (because I'm easier to damage after each attack now), I was reduced to 1 stamina in one round (I think) ...so that's 1 stamina and 1 armour (pretty much wiping out all of those abilities listed above ...and the precious XP they cost). So losing about 20xp worth of abilities at that point (which I can't recall happening in any other situation - unless it is some kind of plot thing), plus lagging behind to the region of another 30xp to someone in a super suit, got me to whinging ...and if there's one thing I'm good at, it's whinging Seriously though, this is just the nature of developing a game I guess. Problems will arise, loopholes will be exploited, some folks will see features where others see flaws, and so on. It's all good
DISCLAIMER: this might just be the blinkered view of a combat character not being able to combat as good as they used to ...there is always that possibility
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gilbo
2019 Group
Posts: 1,446
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Post by gilbo on Apr 13, 2019 12:44:07 GMT
I like the suggestions for how armour should work.
I am happy to go with Kris's suggestions.
Thanks for your input everyone.
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Post by brumguvnor on Apr 13, 2019 19:52:36 GMT
always refreshing to be on a table where people can talk to each other and say "I don't agree with you on this..." without any childishness.
Well done on all of the adulting there!
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Post by Kristian on Apr 13, 2019 20:52:27 GMT
Speak for yourself
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Post by zaphodbeebledoc on Apr 14, 2019 8:22:09 GMT
My opinion is that super/mega armour is a bit crap after the recent ruling that states that it now uses your current stamina score (not your max score) When did that happen? Completly missed that!
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Post by pericles on Apr 14, 2019 11:34:49 GMT
My opinion is that super/mega armour is a bit crap after the recent ruling that states that it now uses your current stamina score (not your max score) When did that happen? Completly missed that!
As far as I am aware it has always been a feature and is not new. Now lets see if I can upset everyone.
I have just caught up with all the posts on combat. Rather than jump in on specific points I will start with general principals and what I like about the Slam system.
To make combat fun characters need to hit opponents on a regular basis and have the occasional special success. Before the opposed combat rolls the problem was hitting people – the hit dodge stalemate. Under current rules all else being equal the hit probability is around half. Combat superiority is gained via higher stats. Providing combats are between teams with similar stats including super and mega equivalents the probability of hitting against a defence will be the same. Similarly the probability of gaining Slams will be the same.
I like the way damage throughout the campaign has been scaled (until recently) in a sensitive way. Damage dealt has always been just greater than damage avoid/soak. The guilty parties on the exploits have been players including me rather than GM.
I like the one player one action mechanic. Multiple/split attacks are on one roll. No player gets extra table time just because they have extra actions. (One of my biggest gripes about DND.)
When I built Josephine decided on power build rather than physical build. • Attack = Smarts • Dodge = Speed • Armour = Spirit (always the plan only recently attained) • Grab special effects via modified attack and Slams (super and mega attributes)
The equivalent physical build is: • Attack = Strength • Dodge = Speed • Armour = Stamina • Grab special effects via modified attack and Slams (super and mega attributes)
Looking at the two builds both have access to the special effect grab. The power build exploit is Spirit Armour rather than Stamina Armour, very few attacks ablate Spirit. The downside to Spirit Armour is the trade off on attributes and low stamina. If anything gets through I am in serious trouble.
Prior to the power point damage boost exploit, the damage potential (mega = 3) and soak potential (mega = 2 on a success, 3 on a slam) were balanced. The power build could soak a small number of successful attacks and the physical build could soak many more attacks.
The original Slam effect, double damage plus special effect, was changed after first or second session to special effect only. There are two levels of special effect Minor and Major corresponding to the two levels of the power “Modified Attack”. Assuming a successful hit an ordinary Slam is functionally the same a one off application of a Minor Modified attack.
I propose Armour piercing be included as a Minor effect within Modified attack. I further propose additional Slam damage be changed from Multiplicative to Additive. A Slam causes a Minor effect and if you want extra damage choose armour piercing. A double slam causes two special effects and if you want extra damage choose armour piercing twice.
The proposals tone down the effects of slams and increase maximum standard damage from three to four. Standard mega damage soak is only 2 and Josephine will only be able to soak one successful attack. If someone hits Josephine with a Slam Armour piercing Modified Mega attack causing 5 damage she is dead unless she can Slam the Armour soak roll. Under the proposal Physical builds have an inherent advantage due to high stamina.
Turning to the other Minor and Major effects. No one except Steve has used a Major modified attack. Josephine only gained the ability at the end of the last session.
Minor Effects • -2 to actions for 2 rounds (blinded, confused, frightened, weakened) • Restricted movement (knocked back, knocked down) • Action loss (stunned scared) • Other (disarmed)
Major • Bound: Restricts movement and is contested; does not prevent mental actions; weaker than stunned • Paralysed: Restricts movement and is Un-Contested; does not prevent mental actions; weaker than stunned • Damage continues
The hierarch of effects is completely wrong, the most powerful effects are: Stunned Scared and Continuing damage. I propose: • Weakened: -2 to all actions for 1 turn • Dazed (weakened, confused etc): Lose attack action for 1 turn (may move and defend) • Restricted (knocked back, knocked down etc): Lose move action for 1 turn (may attack and defend) • Armour piercing (may be taken multiple times) Modified attack 1 chooses 1, modified attack 2 chooses 2. Each slam chooses 1.
The team work donate power: donate one, recipient gains 2 is clearly over powered but fun until it is used against us. Team work is insta-death. Do we seriously want this option used against us?
Stamina extra action is great for a stamina build and doubles player table time. I really do not like this option and think it should be dropped. Mega Regeneration is powerful enough without doubling as an extra action power.
In summary I think the system is reasonably well balanced. The issues are the special effects for modified attacks and slams which need toning down. Team work, seriously is anyone going to defend this exploit. Stamina extra actions.
Hypothetically Receive 4PP from 2PP donation. Spend 1PP to double attack dice to 6. Split mega attack 4 ways with individual rolls against two targets. Only causes 1 damage if it gets through but takes down dodges. Spend 1Stamina, Spend 3PP. Split mega attact two ways with single roll. Assuming no dodges left two damage plus Modified attack armour piercing twice for four damage trippled to 12. Regenerate Stamina.
As Stamina is on a 1 to 10 scale and Mega armour is soak 2. Two dead Player Charcters.
Additive damage dangerous. Multiplicative damage Fatal
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Post by Kristian on Apr 14, 2019 13:48:37 GMT
My opinion is that super/mega armour is a bit crap after the recent ruling that states that it now uses your current stamina score (not your max score) When did that happen? Completly missed that! It was a recent thing if I'm remembering correctly. So someone who'd spent points on a Stamina of 5 and the Super Armour ability for example ...was actually worse than a Stamina 3 character in 'armour 5' riot gear - at least as far as 'armour' goes (i.e. gear that's been available for free ...not to mention the 'super suits'). Hence the gripe
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Post by dstubbs on Apr 14, 2019 16:44:52 GMT
I agree with pretty much everything here. Slams multiplying success factors turns a hard fight into a “spend PP = win” scenario. Slams function like critical successes in other games, in so far as they are absolute in their effectiveness until a slam is rolled in opposition to them. In games like DnD, played on a D20 system, Croats feel relatively rare. But in our D10 system the minute you upgrade a stat to Super and Beyond your chances of slamming increase exponentially. I *personally* think this hurts high-stat builds a touch and would want to see Slams adding to your attack/defend scores directly (each slam adds +3 and an additional effect, perhaps), but that’s just my own suggestion. The real issue is teamwork breaking scaling and, to a lesser extent, the rate at which we recover PP per session. It’s a bit too easy to splurge them every session, especially when you double their effect through teamwork (which is cool, but a bit bonkers).
Perhaps if we recovered them at a rate of one per session and/or in game rest, they’d feel a bit more special when we use them? And Teamwork could function as follows: when a player uses a Power, other players may spend a PP to aid them. This aid adds 1D10 to all uses of that Power during the players turn. If they describe this aid in a way that uses a Power that they posses which keys off the same Stat that the first players Power uses (for example two players both using Strength powers to attack: one to land the blow, the other to aid the first in some way) then the PP adds 2D10 to Rolls. This makes teamwork additive instead of multiplicative and rewards intelligent use of Powers: some players will work better together than others because of their natural Power sets. Which I think is kind of cool.
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Post by pericles on Apr 14, 2019 18:04:50 GMT
Just for info. Sorry about the formatting
Degree of Success Statistic Ordinary Super Mega 1 0.00 0.00 0.00 2 0.10 0.19 0.27 3 0.30 0.55 0.76 4 0.60 1.06 1.42 5 1.00 1.70 2.20 6 1.50 2.45 3.08 7 2.10 3.29 4.01 8 2.80 4.20 4.98 9 3.60 5.16 5.98 10 Botch
An ordinary stat of 9 has the same degree of sucess as a super 7.5 or mega 6.5. When it comes to oposed rolls the quickest way to increase your degree of sucess is by increasing your stat. Ordinary to Super is 6xp, Super to Mega is another 5. For 12 XP you can increase your stat by 4 or go Mega.
Probability Slam Statistic Ordinary Super Mega 1 10% 19% 20% 2 10% 20% 25% 3 10% 21% 29% 4 10% 22% 33% 5 10% 23% 36% 6 10% 24% 38% 7 10% 25% 40% 8 10% 26% 42% 9 10% 27% 42% 10 Botch
There is very little point in increasing a stat above 7 if your objective is to get Slams. Slams have become a necessary part of both attack and defence.
My personal opinion is that high stats benefit from super and mega more than low stats.
Joesephine has mega smarts for attack, super speed to dodge, and super spirit for armor (sonic force field). The priority after increasing stamina will be to mega speed to counter slam attacks.
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gilbo
2019 Group
Posts: 1,446
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Post by gilbo on Apr 14, 2019 19:57:31 GMT
OK, I am gonna try and condense everything and decide on the rule changes that we should implement. I'm also adding a few ideas of my own. See what you think.
Armour
Normal armour There are three types available: 1.Light (leather, etc.), 2.Medium (riot gear, chain) and 3.Heavy (Plate). They soak 1 damage per attack, no roll required. Once they have soaked 1 damage they drop 1 in value. Therefore, if you are hit three times for 3 damage each time, you would take 2,3,3 if wearing leather, 2,2,3 in chain and 2,2,2 in plate.
Super armour (renamed Super toughness) Soaks 1 damage from any attack except psychic and one other, no roll required. When you choose this power you must choose a weakness - one type of attack bypasses the armour (fire, ice, lightning, sonic, death).
Mega toughness Soaks 2, otherwise as above.
Power armour Grants super powers as above. If a suit gives you Mega toughness, super strength and super speed, it costs 4 power points to activate per use (up to 1 day). Vulnerable to lightning damage. This is in fact how I initially envisioned the suits. When you got them I was too kind and said it only costed 1.
Slam effects
Slams, enhanced attacks and boosted attacks can add the following effects at the cost of 1 damage point: • Weakened: -2 to all actions for 1 turn • Dazed: Lose attack action for 1 turn (may move and defend) • Restricted (knocked back, knocked down etc) (Slammed?): Lose move action for 1 turn (may attack BUT NOT defend) NOTE I have changed this from Dave’s suggestion • +1 Armour piercing (may be taken multiple times) Modified attack 1 chooses 1, modified attack 2 chooses 2. Each slam chooses 1.
For 2 damage points you can choose: • Damage continues: whatever damage you take after soaking continues for the next round • Paralysed: cannot attack or defend for 1 turn
As before, if you soak all the damage you also ignore any effects.
ANOTHER PROPOSAL - damage can go above 3. So a super enhanced mega attack does base 5 damage. Slams add +1.
Double slams add +2 effects, not double damage. This would mean that if you hit with a super enhanced mega attack and scored a double slam, you would do 7 damage.
Stamina, power points and teamwork
In the interests of not allowing some characters more actions than others, you can no longer spend a point of stamina to gain an extra action.
You can spend a power point to ‘power up’ an attack. If the attack hits, you add +1 damage or a slam effect. You can spend any number of points in this way but if you miss they are wasted.
You can spend a power point to aid another player on their turn. This does not require an action but must be something feasible and also cool. You can’t just ‘shout encouragement from the other side of the room’. The donated point becomes 2 points which the player can spend as they like, for example doubling dice, rolling again or adding up to +2 damage.
Power points do not regenerate automatically overnight. You get them back in a similar way to xp. I will also give free ones out for doing cool stuff.*
*This is how I meant to do it from the start, but didn’t due to me being too kind/old/forgetful/lazy.
Feel free to chip in with comments and criticisms.
As always, none of this really matters, the game will proceed in a similar fashion - you defeat some enemies, you get more powerful, you defeat stronger enemies, etc. I am not trying to nerf anyone particularly and I’m not in the business of GM vs Players. The idea is that everyone is having fun.
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Post by dstubbs on Apr 14, 2019 20:02:39 GMT
Sounds good to me!
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Post by Kristian on Apr 14, 2019 20:27:33 GMT
Forgive the ignorance (as I've not really delved into the sorcery stuff ) ...but is the lack of PP regeneration going to hamper James' abilities severely? (i.e. isn't that his main power?). As I say, I don't really know how it works ...so this is just a query.
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gilbo
2019 Group
Posts: 1,446
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Post by gilbo on Apr 14, 2019 20:32:40 GMT
Forgive the ignorance (as I've not really delved into the sorcery stuff ) ...but is the lack of PP regeneration going to hamper James' abilities severely? (i.e. isn't that his main power?). As I say, I don't really know how it works ...so this is just a query. Ooops, yeah I forgot about that. Hmmmm... not sure what to do now.
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