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Post by Karrgos on Jan 18, 2020 22:03:34 GMT
Hey, I've levelled up Tarik and taken the Magic adept feat. I've reskinned the abilities so they are more Monk flavoured.
Sheild = Iron body. Tarik channels his Ki into his skin, reinforcing it against attack.
Booming blade = Thunder strike. Tarik channels his Ki into his weapon. When he strikes, his Ki energy disrupts that of his opponent creating a positive and negative charge (Ying and Yang) within their Ki. When they will their body to move, the two charges collide back together and the energy is released with a thunderous *Boom*.
Mending = Tariks abilities as a smith and stone mason mean he's pretty good with metal and stone. He channels his Ki into his tools and gives him the ability to make small repairs quickly.
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Post by pericles on Jan 22, 2020 22:02:57 GMT
I have a cold and would rather not pass it on (except at work).
Rimir has a large number of cantrips. Prior to combat suggest Mold earth to produce a 5ft cube packed earth rampart providing 3/4 cover +5 AC +5 Dex save. Can also be used to 1) stop a charge as range is 60ft, 2) Produce a 5ft wall across a defensible gap, (requires multiple casts)
You should practice using silent image as a globe of darkness covering the fighters. If it works as intended it is superior to Faerie Fire as it provides advantage and imposes disadvantage but can be broken by an action to examine the illusion. If Silent image does not work I suggest reverting to Faerie fire.
Flock of familiars (Thank you for the hint) will provide good intelligence on the armies, 3 familiars 1mile communication range rather than 100ft.
Two warlock slots cast at second level plus two bard slots at 1st level.
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Post by Kristian on Jan 23, 2020 10:38:31 GMT
Pretty sure Silent Image (a 1st level utility spell) is not intended to work as Darkness (a very specific 2nd level spell).
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Post by pericles on Jan 23, 2020 13:52:30 GMT
Pretty sure Silent Image (a 1st level utility spell) is not intended to work as Darkness (a very specific 2nd level spell). But it is intended to fool the senses. In this very specific case just sight and can easily be overcome by an at will action. Darkness requires either a character or class ability or a spell to overcome it. This is clearly a GM decision which is why characters are experimenting during down time. But I am going to be brutally honest. The ruling from 2nd edition onwards that any form of illusion is broken as soon as you touch it flies directly in the face of the majority of fantasy literature and renders even 9th level illusions no more powerful than a cantrip. Levelled spells need to have a game effect. A fact continuously overlooked by games designers since 2nd edition. The bottom line. Sight only illusion. Interaction with the illusion causes effects wholly consistent with illusion. If there is any reason to doubt the illusion for example a light source within the boundary of the illusion the affected character needs only to examine the darkness to dismiss it. Rant over.
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Post by Kristian on Jan 23, 2020 13:55:36 GMT
Yeah. Steve might be a kinder DM than me EDIT: Just read that back and thought it might sound a bit snarky if taken in the wrong way. Not my intent
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gilbo
2019 Group
Posts: 1,446
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Post by gilbo on Jan 23, 2020 15:14:50 GMT
The way I would rule on this is, as Kris says, you can't use a level 1 spell to replicate a 2nd level spell effect.
I would argue that darkness is not an image. The illusion needs to be a tangible thing.
There are lots of possibilities, which is why illusions are great. If there is no reason to disbelieve, then enemies will not get a save. Only if they interact with it would they possibly notice.
If you covered enemies with, say, a big pile of shite, that wouldn't work because they would be touching it and would instantly know it wasn't real.
If you covered the fighters with an illusion of say, ogres, or a dragon, that might work for a bit, or could scare the baddies off.
You could create the illusion of a pit, or spikes, or fire, all of which could put enemies at disadvantage.
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Post by pericles on Jan 23, 2020 20:35:59 GMT
The way I would rule on this is, as Kris says, you can't use a level 1 spell to replicate a 2nd level spell effect. I would argue that darkness is not an image. The illusion needs to be a tangible thing. There are lots of possibilities, which is why illusions are great. If there is no reason to disbelieve, then enemies will not get a save. Only if they interact with it would they possibly notice. If you covered enemies with, say, a big pile of shite, that wouldn't work because they would be touching it and would instantly know it wasn't real. If you covered the fighters with an illusion of say, ogres, or a dragon, that might work for a bit, or could scare the baddies off. You could create the illusion of a pit, or spikes, or fire, all of which could put enemies at disadvantage.
The following discussion was useful https://www.reddit.com/r/dndnext/comments/6gmwg5/dungeon_masters_how_do_you_deal_with_illusions_in/
This specific example is also useful.
---------------- There was an Orc Labs podcast with TreantmonkLvl20 (https://soundcloud.com/orclabs/talking-with-treantmonk-5e-wizards) and he gave the following example:
A wizard, barbarian, and rogue are in combat with an Orog. On the Orog's first turn it hits the rogue and drops him to 2HP. If he hits the rogue again, the rogue is going down. The wizard can cast Minor Illusion as a cantrip to create a box around the rogue. The Orog has a few choices now:
Investigate the box with an action, wasting their turn because you can just cast it again next turn and require another check
Try and hit the barbarian, which is what everyone wants anyway
Try and hit the rogue, which is at disadvantage because it doesn't matter whether he disbelieves the illusion, he can't see through it without investigating, so he can't see the rogue.
Try and go for you, and take attacks of opportunity from both the barbarian and the rogue.
So with the use of a cantrip, you've drastically changed the flow of battle. Point 3 is what's important to note here. RAW, it doesn't matter whether the enemies don't believe you or not. Until your illusions are revealed to be false, either through investigation or interaction, they cannot be seen through by anyone except you. ------------------
The argument about faking higher level spell effects is irrelevant. Virtually every example anyone has given of using an illusion fakes a higher level spell effect or ability. Applying the spell level logic a Major image can at best fake Conjure Animals. No ogres, no dragons just a 2CR Beast. Major image cannot fake wall of fire as wall of fire is 4th level. Covering the party with a different aspect as suggested replicates the 5th level spell seeming. Minor illusion, Silent image and other illusions do not replicate spell effects they create images to fake effects not limited to spell effects and are easily escaped. The proposed use of Silent image is to create darkness the tangible object black ink of the same visual aspect as darkness. The intangibility of the illusion reinforces the perception as a zone of darkness. The use of silent image is a direct scaling of the example by TreantMonkLev20 substituting the level 1 spell Silent image in place of the cantrip Minor illusion. Using the template provided by the example: Characters who have not discerned the illusion will not be able to see through the illusion are effectively blind to the target and attack at disadvantage. Characters who have discerned the illusion can see the effectively blind character do so at advantage.
Balancing factors. Player characters will need to interact with the illusion sufficiently often to know they have to disbelieve it. This can be done while closing for combat. If the part practices the tactic then possibly as a reaction.
Targeted characters get the option of running through the illusion to the other side. If they cannot find the other side they may think they have been blinded and try to resist the spell, decide to examine the darkness more closely or create some light. Any approriate interaction will break the fake darkness. An automatic intelligence save for the option to examine the darkness favours higher level characters, spell casters and Gnomes.
If Rimir has thought of this ruse it is certain others will have thought of it as well. Experienced fighters may have practiced the tactic.
The use of Silent image as described is likely give the party an edge for a small number of rounds possibly just one, probably just one at higher CR, none if the tactic has been practiced.
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Post by Kristian on Jan 24, 2020 11:55:07 GMT
Just my opinion ...but I don't think that's how it was intended. As Steve says it really ought to be something tangible - so covering a creature in a box for example would confuse it somewhat - as it couldn't see out. But I don't think it would be cast into darkness* (I mean you could make the inside of the box black - so looking up and to the sides would appear black ...but the creature would still be able to see itself, the floor, anyone else standing inside the 'box' etc.). Similarly you could summon a blob of dark matter between two opponents ...but not upon them. YMMV of course.
*but if you disagree, and judge that it does - maybe a free (i.e. no action) saving throw should be allowed (as the two are kinda interacting)
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Post by pericles on Jan 24, 2020 14:06:55 GMT
Jan 24, 2020 11:55:07 GMT Kristian said: As Steve says it really ought to be something tangible - so covering creature in a box for example would confuse it somewhat - as it couldn't see out. But I don't think it would be cast into darkness (I mean you could make the inside of the box black - so looking up and to the sides would appear black ...but the creature would still be able to see itself, the floor, anyone else standing inside the 'box' etc.).
The box example by treantmonklev20 will allow sight by the creature inside the box out to the limit of the image i.e. the inside of the box providing the character can either see in the dark or has a light source. The game effect is total concealment for both the attacker and defender. At best the attacker can target the square of the box and defender. Attacking will destroy the illusion as the attack passes through the box and may hit the concealled rogue.
The TANGIBLE object I want to create an image of is "Ink of the same visual aspect as darkness". Jump into a swimming pool and open your eyes you can see due to the translucent nature of the water. Jumping into the same pool of water dyed with a non-irritating ink limits your vision depending on the density of the dye. The game effect is to grant total concealment to all characters PC and NPC alike within the zone of the spell. The only advantage a PC would have is they know in advance I am casting the spell and they have experianced the spell and can therfore overcome the illusion with minimal effort.
Lets modify the scenario to ranged combat. I create an image of a dense black smoke between two groups. The game effect is total concealment. PCs knowing about the illusion can see through the illusion and shoot through it. NPCs not knowing about the illusion can attempt to shoot PCs through the dense black smoke. The dense black smoke illusion is intangible and arrows are expected to pass into the dense black smoke, there is no reason to disbelieve the illusion. PCs shooting from concealment get advantage. NPCs attack a square and if a PC is in the square attack with disadvantage.
The true comparison here is a dark variant of Faerie fire
Faerie fire: 20ft cube Dex save 1min conc reveals invisible and grants attackers advantage Dark variant: 15ft cube Periodic Investigation save 10min conc grants attackers advantage and imposes disadvantage on targets
The periodic Investigation save is tiggered whenever there is a discrepancy between the targets view of the world and what they experiance, in this case the PCs do not seem to have any problem targeting the NPCs. NPCs get an investigation roll or intelligence save when they first hit each round. All targets with either an investigation proficiency or Intelligence save have a good chance of overcoming the illusion within one or two rounds. In contrast Faerie fire will last the full 10 rounds.
The apparent duration of the dark variant is 10min conc but is likely to be a few rounds and almost certainly less than the 10 round duration of Faerie fire.
Given all the disadvantages and general inferiority of the effect compared to Faerie fire you may be wondering why I am fighting for the application of Silent image. In the first round or two of combat there is an advantage to the effect. Second my levelled spell is having less effect than a minor illusion cantrip of an opaque hood materialised around the head of an attacker. Third levelled spells should have some utility.
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Post by Kristian on Jan 24, 2020 14:58:25 GMT
What I meant was - you could do a similar thing to an opponent. The TANGIBLE object I want to create an image of is "Ink of the same visual aspect as darkness"... Maybe I'm misunderstanding - but don't you disbelieve the illusion as soon as you touch it? Lets modify the scenario to ranged combat... But wouldn't 'friendlies' also need to make the save? I mean, it's all very well you telling me that the tiger bearing down on me isn't real ...but still... (maybe a save with advantage would be in line with the way 5e does things). The true comparison here is a dark variant of Faerie fire Not if you are essentially creating a new spell description (IMHO). But yeah - I probably shouldn't be getting involved. Not my game Not my rules I just thought I'd weigh in with my thoughts (wanted or not ) since I'm sat here in front of the computer all day - so I'll leave it at that for now. If it works - cool ...we'll get the jump on the baddies
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gilbo
2019 Group
Posts: 1,446
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Post by gilbo on Jan 24, 2020 15:01:49 GMT
Okay, I have to disagree on several points here... Investigate the box with an action, wasting their turn because you can just cast it again next turn and require another check Try and hit the barbarian, which is what everyone wants anyway Try and hit the rogue, which is at disadvantage because it doesn't matter whether he disbelieves the illusion, he can't see through it without investigating, so he can't see the rogue. Try and go for you, and take attacks of opportunity from both the barbarian and the rogue. So with the use of a cantrip, you've drastically changed the flow of battle. Point 3 is what's important to note here. RAW, it doesn't matter whether the enemies don't believe you or not. Until your illusions are revealed to be false, either through investigation or interaction, they cannot be seen through by anyone except you. I disagree with all of that. Suddenly a box appears around a character I have just been attacking, if I was an orc I would just hit the box. As a DM I would rule that the box provided no protection and the orc did not have to investigate the illusion. The argument about faking higher level spell effects is irrelevant. Virtually every example anyone has given of using an illusion fakes a higher level spell effect or ability. Applying the spell level logic a Major image can at best fake Conjure Animals. No ogres, no dragons just a 2CR Beast. Major image cannot fake wall of fire as wall of fire is 4th level. Covering the party with a different aspect as suggested replicates the 5th level spell seeming. Minor illusion, Silent image and other illusions do not replicate spell effects they create images to fake effects not limited to spell effects and are easily escaped. Illusions give the appearance of other spells. They are meant to distract/confuse/redirect. You can of course make an image of a dragon, fire or whatever, they won't do any damage, but enemies might think they would, so would respond appropriately. The TANGIBLE object I want to create an image of is "Ink of the same visual aspect as darkness". Jump into a swimming pool and open your eyes you can see due to the translucent nature of the water. Jumping into the same pool of water dyed with a non-irritating ink limits your vision depending on the density of the dye. The game effect is to grant total concealment to all characters PC and NPC alike within the zone of the spell. The only advantage a PC would have is they know in advance I am casting the spell and they have experianced the spell and can therfore overcome the illusion with minimal effort.
Lets modify the scenario to ranged combat. I create an image of a dense black smoke between two groups. The game effect is total concealment. PCs knowing about the illusion can see through the illusion and shoot through it. NPCs not knowing about the illusion can attempt to shoot PCs through the dense black smoke. The dense black smoke illusion is intangible and arrows are expected to pass into the dense black smoke, there is no reason to disbelieve the illusion. PCs shooting from concealment get advantage. NPCs attack a square and if a PC is in the square attack with disadvantage. Okay, fair enough, you could create the image of fog or a cloud of ink. Nevertheless, I don't think PCs could easily train to ignore it. Maybe they could with time and effort. It would still take time to actively disbelieve the illusion and work around it. It might be possible if you practised the strategy several times. I do take the point of levelled warlock spells - your spells are all effectively second level now so they could have better effects than before.
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Post by pericles on Feb 15, 2020 12:44:40 GMT
Main Features: Spell DC 16, Spell Attack +8, Eldritch blast x2 D10+5 dmg
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Post by brumguvnor on Feb 15, 2020 15:38:03 GMT
Nice one Dave.
Can anyone else print this?
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Post by brumguvnor on Feb 15, 2020 16:38:01 GMT
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Post by brumguvnor on Feb 16, 2020 18:37:33 GMT
... if Steve allows allosaurus that is...
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