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Post by Kristian on Jan 26, 2020 16:01:42 GMT
As the title says - these are just a few thoughts at the moment ...just to gauge interest (remember that I'm trying to invoke a feel of old school play with Barrowmaze). Anyway, see what you think (some may be impractical).
1) Players sit in (dexterity) Initiative order around the table. Initiative is not rolled randomly - we simply go around the table (inserting the monsters where applicable).
2) Long rests (in the sense of regaining all HP) are only available in a comfortable location (i.e. back in town). Other abilities (regaining spells etc.) renew as normal.
3) Anyone proficient with shields may spend inspiration to 'sunder' their shield - and thus avoid all of the damage from an incoming attack (after which the shield is rendered useless).
4) Cantrips can only be cast a number of times equal to your proficiency bonus plus your spell casting statistic score (that's score, not bonus).
5) Time critical items* (such as lamps, torches, etc.) will be assigned a 'usage die' (as introduced in 'the black hack' RPG). Candles are 1d4, torches are 1d6, lanterns are 1d12 (magical effects gain 1 usage die per half hour duration - so a 1 hour spell has 1d6 - the same as a torch).
USAGE DIE RULES (from The Black Hack RPG): Whenever the DM decides that a sufficient amount of time has passed, the players roll the usage die noted next to their item(s). On a result of a 1 or a 2 the die decreases one step (for example, if you roll a 1 or a 2 on a d8, that item's usage die drops down to a d6). When/if a 1 or 2 is rolled on a d4, the item/ability runs out.
*Resource management is a big part of mega-dungeon play ...and I think this method is a fairly simple/good one. So if you decide to spend time knocking down a bricked up doorway or taking a short rest, the DM may call for a usage die check - rather than trying to keep track of actual time.
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Post by Kristian on Jan 26, 2020 16:26:55 GMT
Oh ...and I'm not looking to run this any time soon* - it's just there, in the background, for whenever we might need it (like if a couple of players are missing or something like that). *though there is something of my own I'd like to playtest at some point in the near future (i.e. within the first half of this yeah) - but it's not finished yet
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gilbo
2019 Group
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Post by gilbo on Jan 26, 2020 17:45:53 GMT
Ok, here's my thoughts... 1) Players sit in (dexterity) Initiative order around the table. Initiative is not rolled randomly - we simply go around the table (inserting the monsters where applicable). OK, could work. 2) Long rests (in the sense of regaining all HP) are only available in a comfortable location (i.e. back in town). Other abilities (regaining spells etc.) renew as normal. Up to the GM. Personally I have already implemented this a bit. You need a decent place to rest, otherwise you won't fully heal. Makes sense. 3) Anyone proficient with shields may spend inspiration to 'sunder' their shield - and thus avoid all of the damage from an incoming attack (after which the shield is rendered useless). I like this. Definitely a new rule that we can use in my game too. 4) Cantrips can only be cast an number of times equal to your proficiency bonus plus your spell casting statistic score (that's score, not bonus). Seems a bit pointless. 5) Time critical items* (such as lamps, torches, etc.) will be assigned a 'usage die' (as introduced in 'the black hack' RPG). Candles are 1d4, torches are 1d6, lanterns are 1d12 (magical effects gain 1 usage die per half hour duration - so a 1 hour spell has 1d6 - the same as a torch). Really like this. Good system.
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Post by pericles on Jan 26, 2020 19:53:50 GMT
1) Players sit in (dexterity) Initiative order around the table. Initiative is not rolled randomly - we simply go around the table (inserting the monsters where applicable). I like rolled initiative. I don't want to be last every time. (I don't actually know where I fall in the stat order.)
This has the potential of changing dramtically changing the game and party balance. It could turn characters with healing abilities into healing slaves. Proceed with extreme caution. P.S. We are adventurers and aclimated to sleeping rough. Conditions need to be really bad before we cannot find an adequate rest spot.
The inspiration economy is upto the GM. It may be better to find an alternate currency to spend, I do not know what. Tactically sundering your shield, reducing AC by 2 for the foreseable future until we hit civilisation is a bad idea. In general someone gets hit for masive damage taking them to just below zero. Next round they are up after being healed and can take action. Sure healing characters will need to keep the injured going until we can find at least short rest.
Sounds like alot until it is not. I am completely against this. If implemented I would want it implemented in parallel with "You can only attack a number of times equal to your proficiency bonus plus your spell casting statistic score (that's score, not bonus)."
Interesting idea. For the most part the only time critical items we have are spells.
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Post by Kristian on Jan 26, 2020 22:03:50 GMT
To shed some light on my thinking... 1) We've done this on occasion in several systems now ...mainly when we're trying to hurry things up. So why not always run it in 'hurry-up mode' - i.e. get straight to the point, save time, and get in more gaming in. This is mainly because this is a filler game (so it's only ever going to be run on the odd occasion and for a couple of hours at a time - so it would definitely save time) - but I do know that people, including myself, like to roll dice 2) It shouldn't really have a major impact ...as each foray into the Barrowmoor should be a 'one day event' - as you really shouldn't be tempted to spend the night there - it's just too dangerous. Essentially, this is a way to reinforce that idea (and it's actually much less punishing than some of the optional rules presented in the DMG). So if it transpires that you do have to spend the night on the moors (for whatever reason) ...things haven't gone well at all, and you really should be worried (the whole 'rest for 8 hours in the dungeon and start off afresh' goes against the very nature of the whole adventure). 3) I'm also tempted to just let folks 'sunder their shields' without spending inspiration. Because, like it's been pointed out, a -2 to AC for the rest of the session is a big deal. 4) Another option is to have that reset after a short rest. This is mainly to put a limit on cantrip spamming (guidance or light for example). 5) Light sources etc. should play a part. As I say, one of the themes of a megadungeon is resource management. I know I could use DM fiat and just say 'your light goes out now' ...but having a mechanism like this in place makes everything a bit more dramatic. Anyway, just to reiterate, this is a pre-written adventure that is trying to emulate old-school play. Don't come into it thinking of a vanilla 5E* game. If a a wizard needs to fall back on a dagger or crossbow, then things haven't gone well - but it should be a possibility. A fighter cannot just take a nap in the dungeon to reset his HP to max. And so on. But I would like to try these out if/when the next time we break it out, and see how it goes - as I think these would reinforce the feel/style that the book is aiming for, and therefore be more fun in the long run. This isn't an epic fantasy, and 'adventuring' isn't a sport - it's dangerous, it's deadly ...and exploring 'just one more room' is risky business. That being said, none of this needs to be set in stone. If something turns out to be horrible or more trouble than it's worth ...it goes straight in the bin *though on the other hand I am making some things in the book MORE 5E. For example I am replacing the 'save or die' saves to 'drop to 0HP and dying' and so on.
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Post by brumguvnor on Jan 27, 2020 15:12:21 GMT
I can understand wanting to take action against cantrip spamming... - but I have honestly never seen it happen in real play. And what Dave said goes for me too: "You can only attack a number of times equal to your proficiency bonus plus your spell casting statistic score (that's score, not bonus)."
Cantrips were implemented for a damn good reason - to give spellcasters a reliable, decently hitting attack every turn: if they are nerfed then you are in danger of getting back to the old school, where the magic users were absolute glass cannons, and could be taken out by a single random arrow.
I really like the idea of sundering a shield though: its optional, you know the risks, and there are times you absolutely MUST avoid taking damage RIGHT NOW as otherwise you're dead.
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Post by Kristian on Jan 27, 2020 15:51:42 GMT
I'm thinking of them more as ammunition (and if you want to be a ranged 'fighter' - you still need arrows right?). And when did anyone last run out of arrows? I would have thought that around 15-18 per short rest would be more that enough for most situations, and at the same time stop the 'let me cast acid splash on the stone door for six hours and we'll then be through' type of situations, or casting 'guidance' before every fecking skill check (which was something that was cropping up in some of my Saturday games before I got sick). And as I keep saying ...it's meant to be old school in feel ...that's kinda the whole point (so that the game is offering something different to the regular campaign without us all having to relearn a whole new set of rules). FYI Barrowmaze was originally written for the OSR retroclones (essentially the old basic D&D - you know, where dwarf or elf was your class) - and IMO the later 5e edition was a bit rushed and needs some work (see my 'save or die' example above - or the fact that it rarely gives a DC for anything). So, could we at least try it the next time we play and see how it goes? Alternatively, if the whole group agrees that cantrip spam is bad form at this table - then that works too
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Post by Kristian on Jan 27, 2020 16:53:05 GMT
Another (additional) option is to also introduce 'the escalation die' from 13th age (another D&D spinoff). Basically, at the start of a fight the escalation die is set at zero. On the second round you place a large D6 on the table with the number one facing up, and all attacks and damage gain a +1 bonus. On the next round the die gets turned to number two, and everyone gets +2, and so on (up to a max of +6). It was introduced (during the 4E era I think) to speed up combat and make it so that combat becomes more and more deadly the longer it goes on. Whatcha think? is this also worth a try (note that monsters get the bonus too ). ...note that this would involve me having to go out and buy a massive d6
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Post by pericles on Jan 27, 2020 18:37:11 GMT
If you want to count my cantrips go ahead. I won't be.
There is a reason no-one plays a ranger. There is a reason for carrying a sling and being able to gather ammo.
Old school is fine providing the action economy is preserved. Why do you think so many Old school games started at third level or even higher?
I don't want to argue or ruin the fun. I'll just stay home.
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gilbo
2019 Group
Posts: 1,446
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Post by gilbo on Jan 27, 2020 19:04:19 GMT
If you want to count my cantrips go ahead. I won't be.
There is a reason no-one plays a ranger. There is a reason for carrying a sling and being able to gather ammo. Old school is fine providing the action economy is preserved. Why do you think so many Old school games started at third level or even higher?
I don't want to argue or ruin the fun. I'll just stay home.
Firstly, I think Kris is talking about his barrowmaze game here, and as he is the GM, whatever he says goes. Secondly, I don't think the reason for no-one playing a ranger is counting arrows, it's because they are a bit rubbish. Besides which, there aren't many times when Tony HASN'T played a ranger!
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Post by Kristian on Jan 27, 2020 19:24:42 GMT
If you want to count my cantrips go ahead. I won't be. So you won't even let me try it? not once ...not even in my own game? Nice (that seems strange since you were willing to experiment with a completely experimental spell system bolted on to 5E for the Ragnarok game). Have I done something to upset you ...or something like that? (judging by the tone of your recent replies I feel like I have - though I could just be reading them wrong). If I have, I appologise. I just want to try and run a fun dungeon crawl for everyone every now and again (one that fits the book/setting that I have bought for the occasion) ...so that we don't have to cancel when a few folks are missing on a particular week. Also... Were we planning on moving soon? (have I missed out on something? as I caught a similar hint in another message).
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Post by Kristian on Jan 27, 2020 19:31:00 GMT
Firstly, I think Kris is talking about his barrowmaze game here Indeed. I'm not suggesting changes to any other games. Not even my own 'Tropes Town' games.
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gilbo
2019 Group
Posts: 1,446
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Post by gilbo on Jan 27, 2020 19:43:30 GMT
Also... Were we planning on moving soon? (have I missed out on something? as I caught a similar hint in another message). You missed the discussion, as it was on WhatsApp. We were going to play at Jonny's flat last week, as he has to look after a dog. Not sure whether we are at Dave's or Jonny's this week....
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Post by Kristian on Jan 27, 2020 19:43:48 GMT
Gotcha
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Post by pericles on Jan 27, 2020 21:16:57 GMT
I am probably biting everyone at the moment. It is not personal. I appologise.
I have no objection to you trying anything in your game. It will just frustrate me on many levels and it is simpler not to be there.
Experimental, freeform, no limits. What was there not to like? One of the many reasons I like Amber and you hate it.
I have always enjoyed your dungeon crawls in the past.
Rules 1 and 2 affect everyone almost equally. Magic using classes with the ability to heal will have an elevated healing burden which will deny the party of utility and other spells. Rule 3 affects classes with shield proficiency and is the only bonus ability in the rule set. Rule 4 affects magic users by placing new limits on them. Rule 5 affects a very small number of races but not in any way that is different than before. Rule 5 in combination with rule 4 intensifies a new unavoidable limit on magic users trying to help companions see in the dark.
I threw the same fit with James and mage punk when it looked like magic users would be going into action each day minus their top level spells. It is not personal just an extreme reaction when party balance and hence table balance is tilted in favour of one group. I would be equally upset if Magic users had slave collars to use on martial characters in the party.
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